Oneika Raymond dials into Vancouver’s historic Chinatown to learn how local entrepreneur Carol Lee has been leading the charge to save the historic neighborhood. Carol’s the chair and founder of the Vancouver Chinatown Foundation, and is dedicated to revitalizing the neighborhood without losing its invaluable cultural heritage.
Oneika learns about the history of the Chinese community in Vancouver, and how Chinatown became home for many after the Canadian Pacific Railroad was completed in 1885. While Chinatown has experienced a gradual decline in the last 20 years, Vancouver locals have a special place in their hearts for the area and are banding together to help save it. And Carol is leading the charge.
Examples of her work include building affordable housing and opening the first museum in Canada that shines a spotlight on the Chinese-Canadian experience. And as you’ll hear, she’s just getting started.
Along the way, Carol takes us on a tour of Chinatown. She points out the beauty of the early 20th century architecture, like the Lim Building, stops by the Chinatown Storytelling Centre, and reflects on the significance of the Millenium Gate.
We also hear from the manager of her Hong Kong barbecue style restaurant, Chinatown BBQ, who shares Carol’s vision for harnessing the nostalgia of Chinatown of yesteryear while serving today’s diverse clientele.
Carol also shares must-visit sites and eats with Oneika, including the lush Dr. Sun Yat-Sen Classical Chinese Gardens, the donuts at Mello, and dim sum at Jade Dynasty.
Podcast Transcripts
Katarina – Producer: Okay. I’m gonna keep rolling.
Carol Lee: Okay.
Katarina – Producer: Um, and then whenever you want to point something out, we’ll stop.
Oneika: It’s a rainy Thursday morning in downtown Vancouver. Commuters drive by and Chinatown’s storefront gates have yet to be pulled up to greet the day. A local audio producer named Katarina checks the mic levels.
Katarina – Producer: do you know what you’re gonna have for lunch?
Carol Lee: I do. I’m meeting somebody and we’re going to Chinatown BBQ. So I’m probably gonna have roast duck.
Katarina – Producer: Very nice.
Oneika: This is Carol Lee, chair and founder of the Vancouver Chinatown Foundation. She also happens to be the owner of Chinatown Barbeque.
Katarina – Producer: And where are we right now?
Carol Lee: Right now we’re standing, on East Pender street, right in front of the millennium gates that signifies that we’re at the beginning of Chinatown.
Oneika: You have to stand back to take in the entirety of the millennium gate. Its arches rise three stories above Pender Street. The gate is flanked by two stone fu lions for protection, and there are Chinese characters running down two columns. While Carol had yet to start the foundation when the gate was inaugurated in 2002, what’s written there could well have been her mission statement.
Carol Lee: The characters scribed on the front ask us to remember the past and look forward to the future.
Oneika: It’s a big ask. And one that’s become more and more difficult since the gate was erected two decades ago. But Carol is not one to back down from a challenge, especially one as personal as this.
Carol Lee: You often don’t appreciate what something means to you or how important it is until it’s almost lost.
Oneika: Welcome to About the Journey. I’m your host, Oneika Raymond, a travel journalist and member of Marriott Bonvoy. Throughout season 2, I’m exploring what it means to travel better. And I’m doing it with the help of locals who show us a city through their eyes.
This is Vancouver, British Columbia, and Canada’s largest Chinatown.
Oneika: Hi, Carol, how are you?
Carol Lee: Good! Nice to meet you Oneika.
Oneika: Great to meet you. Thank you so much for speaking to us.
Carol Lee: It’s a pleasure. It made me think about a few things here, which I hadn’t thought about in a while.
Oneika: Yeah. Sometimes, you know, you get so into doing something you don’t realize the larger impact it has because it’s just so commonplace to you, so…
Carol Lee: Well, actually that wasn’t what I was thinking of, but thank you for saying that. I was thinking more about like, oh, you know, I don’t really get out to the walk around very much because you know, when you’re busy, sometimes you just end up being in your own little bubble. But I think that you are right. I think that we’ve had a, an impact here.
Oneika: Carol is a multi-hyphenate through and through. She’s an entrepreneur, philanthropist, community leader and proud Chinese daughter. In 2011, she set her sights on Vancouver’s Chinatown.
Carol Lee: I could see this gradual decline of Chinatown that if there wasn’t a comprehensive plan that Chinatown would eventually just disappear.
Oneika: Mm.
Carol Lee: And anytime you have a complex problem, there’s no easy silver bullet solution. It took a while to come up with something, but, uh, I think we’re on the right path.
Oneika: Carol founded the Vancouver Chinatown Foundation to help revitalize the historic neighborhood while retaining its cultural heritage. Examples of her work include building affordable housing for seniors and opening the Vancouver Chinatown Storytelling Centre. And as you’ll hear, Carol is just getting started.
Oneika: So you have deep roots in Chinatown. What role has Chinatown played in your upbringing?
Carol Lee: So my grandfather was considered one of the pioneers of Chinatown. His name was Lee B. He had a store called Foo Hung and he was very much involved, in the local community, in the politics of Chinatown. And so, I, I actually work in a building that he purchased in the 1920s.
We’ve always had somebody in the family working there. So I’m I guess the third generation. And, you know, it was fun because I grew up playing there as a child after going to kindergarten at the Chinese Presbyterian church.
Oneika: Wonderful. Now I have (laughs) regretfully only been to Vancouver once 20 years ago.
Carol Lee: Oh my goodness.
Oneika: Yes, over 20 years ago, and I didn’t get to see much of the city. What I do remember when I went was the vibrant Chinese community. How large is the Chinese community in Vancouver?
Carol Lee: It’s pretty large. I wanna say it’s, it’s about 25 to 30% of the overall population. People started coming in sort of the mid 18 hundreds, to work, during the gold rush and then to work on the Canadian Pacific railroad.
And I think there was just different waves of people that came in. Uh, after the completion of the railroad, there was an exclusion act. So, a head tax and so people stopped coming, but there’s been many waves since then. People from Southern China and Hong Kong, and then Taiwan and now a lot of immigrants coming from mainland China. So it’s a diverse Chinese population as well.
Oneika: When was Chinatown established?
Carol Lee: So Chinatown was established in 1885 and it coincided with the completion of the Canadian Pacific railroad. So once the railroad was completed, the Chinese workers really had nowhere to go. So they ended up in a place that is now called Chinatown and it was, uh, located at the edge of a swamp where no one else wanted to live.
Oneika: In the years that followed, Chinese Canadians made the neighborhood home. Carol looks back fondly on her own experiences there.
Carol Lee: Chinatown was the place where we would, gather with family often celebrating, you know, special occasions, birthdays, anniversaries, and, and weddings, and, and many of the people I know both Chinese and non-Chinese share the same sense of nostalgia when it comes to Chinatown.
Carol Lee: It was a very vibrant community where everybody felt welcome. And I think this is a reason why there’s such a broad movement of people that are keen to try and help save it.
Chinatown – memories
Wesley: So I remember coming down here quite often, like once a week, with my parents or with my grandparents, to go grocery shopping, that was in the 90’s Chinatown back then used to be a lot busier.
Peter: You couldn’t even find a patent space over here. So main thing we did is. Wait up at the head of the street, see somebody move, boom, you go in, you know, so it was fun.
Jason: It was busy. Every Sunday I come with my dad, my mom, uh, we do grocery shopping here. We do Dim Sum afterward as well.
Susanna: Chinatown? , it is lots of, uh, feelings, Chinatown have given me so much opportunity, you know, make my business grow. I can make a, a good living. But now it is changed a lot, from the years before. It hurts, okay, and also sad to see, uh, Chinatown being ruined.
Interview – how Chinatown has changed
Oneika: What’s missing from the Chinatown of today versus the Chinatown of yesteryear? Why do you feel nostalgic or sad, I guess in terms of what Chinatown represents today?
Carol Lee: Yeah. I, I would use the word sad. I think a lot of us feel that would be the sentiment. And it’s been a slow gradual decline. I think if you actually had been here 20 years ago and seen what it was like and where to come back, you would be maybe even, shocked about the change.
Oneika: Wow. So even in 20 years there’s been a significant change.
Carol Lee: I think so, and, you know, it’s, it sort of coincides with lots of changes that are happening in, in many urban centers. You know, in the late 1980s, this was actually the most expensive real estate in Vancouver. It was bustling, because practically every Chinese immigrant that would come to Vancouver came through Chinatown, you know, this was the heart of Chinese culture, but, but as the population grew, alternate centers, you know, started popping up. So you have Richmond and, and Burnaby and, and Coquitlam.
And so Chinatown was not, it was no longer kind of the only game in town. So there’s, there were many issues sort of to see the gradual decline that took place.
Oneika: Thank you so much for sharing that. So, what does the Chinatown of today look like? A bit of a visual?
Carol Lee: Yeah, I think you know, if you were to come here, you would say it’s sort of a neighborhood in, flux. it’s a neighborhood that’s got signs of life for sure. But, you know, struggling. And, but I think what is exciting is that what will emerge, it will be possibly even a new, more vibrant type of Chinatown.
There’s businesses that are boarded up and closed, but then there’s new businesses that are coming to take their place. And so, you know, across the street, from where I’m sitting, there’s a restaurant called DD Mau and she is a young entrepreneur. She opened a Vietnamese restaurant that is fantastic.
And it’s got a very charming, very historic kind of interior. And so, if we continue to make places like that, Chinatown can actually be a place that is welcoming to younger audiences as well. So that kind of change, finding that balance, I think, is the job that we have ahead of us.
Carol Lee: You know, I think one of the nice things to do in Chinatown is to, to look beyond the storefronts and to sort of look up. Because there’s some really, really beautiful architecture that still remains today. Most of the buildings were built around the turn of the century and here we’ve got one, it’s the Lim Building. It’s located at 531 Carrall street.
Take a look up and it’s really beautiful. They still have the original, light fixtures in the, in the covered balconies. It’s hard to, to sustain them just because the neighborhood is difficult and the rents don’t always support the kind of upgrades that are necessary, but, uh, the more people that come down to visit the better it will be. So I hope that you will all come down and visit us in Chinatown.
Oneika: It’s, it’s, funny, we’re here talking about Vancouver’s Chinatown and I’m having all of these distinct memories of New York City’s Chinatown. I lived in New York City for six years. Something that I really noticed was how much smaller Chinatown had gotten, how many more businesses were boarded up as compared to 15 years before. Now, I, I find that Little Italy has kind of encroached on Chinatown. Uh, so I don’t know if that is similar to what has happened to Chinatown in Vancouver, i.e. businesses that are not Chinese run encroaching on what was designated as the Chinatown in Vancouver of yesteryear.
Carol Lee: Yeah. And if we think about the beginnings of, of Chinatowns, I mean, they were basically ghettos. It was the only place that they were allowed to live and work. Um, my father was born in, you know, 1933. And at that time, he wouldn’t have been able to go to, up here, the Hudson bay department store, or to a theater or swim in a swimming pool. So every business had to be located here. But you know, over time, they want to move out. They want to do better. And so I think that it’s a natural evolution.
So for me, the fact that it’s changing is not a bad thing. We have to find and help create what that new Chinatown looks like: always remembering the past and having roots, in the history and retaining the cultural heritage, but bringing in new businesses.
Carol Lee: It’s going to be a mix. The idea of just wrapping it up in saran wrap and keeping it sort of historic doesn’t really work either. There’s always got to be change. Change is a given. I think it’s just what kind of change do we want to encourage? And that’s, I think, the challenge going forward.
Oneika: You know, I think that’s a really good reflection and I think that’s a realistic desire. The ability to invite change, recognize that that’s indicative of evolution, but always wanting to keep a foot into the past because we can’t move forward without acknowledging where we’ve come from.
Chinatown Storytelling Centre
Carol Lee: We’re here at the, uh, Chinatown Storytelling Centre and we’re in the lobby and standing in front of our gift shop, which is called Foo Hung Curios. And it’s actually, um, named after the store that my grandfather started in 1921. And it means: stronger together.
Oneika: Located on East Pender Street in the heart of Chinatown, The Storytelling Centre is impossible to miss. Its name is lit up in neat, red block letters on the facade of a two story brick building. The entire ground floor is dedicated to the Chinese Canadian experience.
Carol Lee: So, we collect stories. It’s all about the story. We wanted to create something that was highly accessible, that was very welcoming. So, um, the way we set it up, each of the chapters has an AV station. So you can listen in three different languages. In English, Cantonese, and Mandarin.
Carol Lee: Inside it goes through the seven different chapters of, the Chinese Canadian experience over the last 150 years and it starts with ‘The journey begins.’ So let’s go in.
Storytelling Centre: The whisper of gold had traveled around the world. “Gam Saan,” They said. “Gold mountain.” Thousands would race to the frontiers of the west to chase their fortunes.
Music in – Storytelling Centre
Carol Lee: It’s about the little stories. It’s not necessarily even the big overarching story, but all these tiny stories that actually collectively, if you put them together, make a big history. And it’s a beautiful space, a very immersive space with a lot of different exhibits and artifacts.
Oneika: By the time the Storytelling Centre opened to all in late 2021, it was many years in the making. Drawing on her experiences as an entrepreneur, the foundation takes a three pronged approach to revitalization: physical, cultural, and economic. Carol calls these three categories interconnected pillars.
While tracing the arc of Chinese Canadian history was a feat, it has not been the most challenging of Carol’s many endeavors.
Carol Lee: And I will say, after working on this project for the last 10 years, the economic revitalization pillar is probably the most important, but the most difficult, because if you’re trying to sort of retain existing businesses, you’re trying to retain the cultural heritage, that’s a fine line to walk along.
Oneika: Tell me something, how has the pandemic and the rise in anti AAPI violence underlined the need for your work?
Carol Lee: What we’re doing is now urgently needed. And, I, I think that, you know, it goes back to that economic recovery. We’re not a, a political organization, but I think that we realized how important for instance, the Storytelling Centre is. And this is the first permanent exhibition space that tells the story of the Chinese Canadian contribution over the last 150 years. If the Chinese had not worked on the railroad, that part probably wouldn’t have been completed. And it would be very likely that BC would be part of America. So it totally changed the trajectory of this country. I think people knowing this story helps them understand that they’ve been here for the last 150 years helping to build a country.
So those kinds of things, long term, I think do help because it’s about education. but you know, also giving support to the local merchants. And we support other agencies too, that are doing that kind of a AAPI work.[4]
Oneika: Tell me about Chinatown BBQ restaurant and which one of the pillars that (Laugher) fits into.
Carol Lee: (Laugher) Well, technically that was supposed to be under the economic pillar because every Chinatown, the underpinning is a vibrant restaurant culture. But what I saw happening in Vancouver’s Chinatown was that, the traditional restaurants were closing and most of the restaurants coming, they were wonderful, but they were maybe not geared to a broad family audience.
And so, I decided that it was too risky for the foundation to do, but I decided that I was, much to my father’s dismay, I was gonna do it myself. And so, there was a, a restaurant that had burned down that was well known. It was called Daisy Garden. And so I hired some of the staff to open a traditional Chinese barbecue restaurant and this was a big challenge for me because I only speak English and almost every worker in the restaurant only spoke Cantonese. But I’m very proud of it. I mean, the idea was if I could just fix the front end things that were maybe not that appealing to the broad mainstream.
So you keep the things that people like about Chinese restaurants: mom and pop feel, good authentic food and a good value proposition, but maybe you can improve things like service and ambiance. And I’m happy to say that it served the purpose of what we wanted to do, which was be a community hub. I’m so happy that everybody likes going there and somebody once commented, it’s got the widest range of economic incomes of any restaurant in Vancouver. And that’s kind of what I was hoping for because that’s community people mixing up coming from different places and different backgrounds.
So. So, far so good. (Laughs)
Oneika: Yeah. You know, I, I, I love the whole ethos behind what you said, which is, open this restaurant and create this community hub where you keep the traditional things that people who are of Chinese descent or people who are from the area, things that resonate with them.
And then you add elements that would perhaps encourage other people who are not from the community to join in. And I think that’s a really, really, really smart thing.
Oneika: I lived in Hong Kong for several years, so I can conjure up the warm, familiar scents that would draw a visitor into Chinatown BBQ. Scents like five spice, soy, and hoisin. They’re the building blocks of Hong Kong style barbecue.
Jason: Especially for Asian guests, for Chinese guests, you cannot miss the food in their daily life.
Oneika: This is Jason Yee, manager of Chinatown BBQ.
Jason: We love eating out. We love to, to meet friends, families. We want to gather.
With Carol, we do have the vision to revitalize Chinatown, especially focused on this block, um, 100, East Pender Street. Down the road, we have two more restaurants opening in the same block as well. That’s our vision and our goal in the next couple years.
Oneika: Chinatown BBQ is both modern and nostalgic – its interior harkens back to 1960’s Hong Kong. The menu is in Cantonese and English, boasting items like curry beef brisket and roasted duck. The staff is familiar for locals because Carol hired folks from the neighborhood. It’s a model that she plans to replicate.
Jason: It helps Chinatown to rebuild. As long as you step in this area, and then you, you attach the area and you have memory of this area. When we get old, the memories stay as well.
Oneika: Carol also emphasizes that memory can be a potent catalyst.
Carol Lee: You know, it’s an amazing thing, nostalgia. It’s a very powerful emotion. And I think a lot of the reason why Chinatown now is sort of going through this, this wave of, not activism, but sort of enthusiasm for trying to help with its survival is, is due to that, that very deep seated love.
Oneika: What advice do you have for travelers who are coming to Vancouver who want to engage respectfully with Chinatown?
Carol Lee: Oh, I mean we love visitors. Just coming, you know, walking around the neighborhood, you know, maybe if you learn a little bit about the history beforehand, but just come here and, go to a restaurant, you know, support a local merchant. That would be wonderful.
Oneika: Mm. Specifically in Chinatown, where should we go? What are some must see places?
Carol Lee: Okay. Must sees? I would say the Sun Yat-Sen Garden is a beautiful place to visit for, you know, reflection and tranquility and learning a little bit about an authentic Chinese garden.
Chinatown’s also about shopping and, and commerce. So there’s great Curio shops. I would say Bamboo Village, and then we have our store here called Fu Hung Curios. There’s some fabulous tea shops with expert tea masters: Treasure Green and the Chinese tea shop. And Chinese bakeries: Newtown, Boston, and Maxims, and, uh, the Mello Donuts, are another must stop.
Carol Lee: Nobody that goes there doesn’t love it.
Oneika: Sounds really, really good.
Carol Lee: Yeah. And Jade Dynasty, cuz everyone loves dim sum. So I’m gonna put, unplug in for, uh, Jade Dynasty. They do great dim sum and they’re located right across from the Storytelling Centre.
Oneika: Very nice. And when travelers visit cities, how do you encourage them to support revitalization instead of perpetuating gentrification?
Carol Lee: Yeah. Shopping small and shopping local.
Oneika: Mmhmm.
Carol Lee: I think that really helps, you know, it’s really hard to be a small business owner. I know that myself now that I’ve opened a restaurant, but the amount that they work down here in the neighborhood, it’s just unbelievable. You know, they’re here in the morning. They work seven days a week. Uh, they don’t take any vacation. You know, just knowing people care about you and value what you do. I think there’s, there’s nothing better than that.
Wesley: I’d like to see that life and vibrancy brought back.
Just people coming back to the neighborhood, uh, whether that’s to shop, to eat, to visit attractions, like the CSC or the Dr. Sun Yat-Sen gardens.
Dani: I would love to see us be able to support and uplift the Chinese community that have built this community up and who have been here for a long, long time. Cuz it’s tough, you know, it’s tough to survive in Vancouver as a business, especially when there’s big corporations and other businesses coming in that are new and changing the culture around here.
Peter: Well, I think if everybody worked in harmony, you know, because that’s what we are looking for multiculturalism, right? That’s why if people are, keep on promoting Chinatown, and then I think Chinatown will be better, you know?
Oneika: Carol’s big hopes for Chinatown echo that of the locals. She plans on opening two more restaurants, including the Hoho, an institution that thrived in the 1950’s. The Foundation also recently launched an outdoor festival called Light Up Chinatown, which brings in thousands of people to the neighborhood each year. While there’s a whole lot more work to be done, it all points to a very promising future.
Oneika: How do you stay motivated?
Carol Lee: In the beginning, I think it was fear of survival. It was like, if we don’t do this, it’s gonna be gone, now. It’s a little bit different, now. I think the progress that we’ve made, I no longer am worried that Chinatown will not survive. It will be surviving.
I think that we brought the issue of what’s going on to the mainstream and as I always believed, Vancouver does love this neighborhood. I think now it’s just, you know, the question of what the future looks like and, and how do we want it to develop and change and, and continue to be an inclusive neighborhood for everybody.
Oneika: Mm.
Oneika: That’s all for this episode of About the Journey. Thank you to our Vancouver guest, Carol Lee.
Next week, we head to the home of the largest and longest running queer film festival in the world:
Joshua: where the movie you see on screen is happening outside the doors. You know what I mean? Like the next chapter to that film is what was happening In the streets.
Oneika: Join us on Castro Street in San Francisco.
About the Journey is produced by Marriott Bonvoy Traveler, At Will Media, and me, Oneika Raymond. Our Marriott producers are Robin Bennefield and Jess Moss. Our At Will Media producers are Kait Walsh, Kristy Westgard, Gale Straub and Tina Turner. Editing by Greg Deavens II and Andrew Holzberger.
Head to ChinatownFoundation.org to learn more about their many revitalization projects.
You can learn more about visiting Vancouver and how to travel more meaningfully — from Marriott Bonvoy Traveler at traveler.marriott.com
And if you liked this episode of About the Journey, please be sure to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
I’m your host, Oneika Raymond. See you next week.
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